PETITION AGAINST FORCED VACCINES

Mike wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>> JOHN wrote:
>>> http://whale.to/vaccine/petition_against_forced_vaccines.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear All
>>>
>>>
>>> Please sign this petition and/or please pass this on for others to
>>> sign:-
>>>
>>> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/forcedvaccines/
>>> The government does not guarantee that your child, children or
>>> grandchildren will not have a severe reaction to vaccines nor develop
>>> long term chronic illness as a result.
>>
>> Your government does not guarantee that your child, children or
>> grandchildren will not die from a vaccine preventable illness, either.
>> However, getting them vaccinated is the best guarantee that is available.
>>
>> Jeff
>
> The petition is to reject a proposal by a certain member of British
> parliament to FORCE vaccinations in the UK. A quote:
>
> "A Labour MP has recently suggested forcing all children to be
> vaccinated otherwise they cannot attend school and parents should not
> receive child benefits."

I was not talking about the petition or the law. Rather, I was talking
about the life-saving value of vaccines.

Jeff

Jeff wrote:
> Mike wrote:
>> Jeff wrote:
>>> JOHN wrote:
>>>> http://whale.to/vaccine/petition_against_forced_vaccines.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear All
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please sign this petition and/or please pass this on for others to
>>>> sign:-
>>>>
>>>> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/forcedvaccines/
>>>> The government does not guarantee that your child, children or
>>>> grandchildren will not have a severe reaction to vaccines nor
>>>> develop long term chronic illness as a result.
>>>
>>> Your government does not guarantee that your child, children or
>>> grandchildren will not die from a vaccine preventable illness,
>>> either. However, getting them vaccinated is the best guarantee that
>>> is available.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>
>> The petition is to reject a proposal by a certain member of British
>> parliament to FORCE vaccinations in the UK. A quote:
>>
>> "A Labour MP has recently suggested forcing all children to be
>> vaccinated otherwise they cannot attend school and parents should not
>> receive child benefits."
>
> I was not talking about the petition or the law. Rather, I was talking
> about the life-saving value of vaccines.
>

Some vaccines are not life-saving. Chickenpox, for example.

In message <gvI1k.11102$%Z1.1980@trnddc05>, Mike wrote:

> Some vaccines are not life-saving. Chickenpox, for example.

1999-2005 mortality for varicella and herpes zoster (same thing)
was 1204 for the United States.

--
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against |
| unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct |
| before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson |
+-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs RemoveThis @lumbercartel.com> ---------+

Mike wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>> Mike wrote:
>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>> JOHN wrote:
>>>>> http://whale.to/vaccine/petition_against_forced_vaccines.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear All
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please sign this petition and/or please pass this on for others to
>>>>> sign:-
>>>>>
>>>>> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/forcedvaccines/
>>>>> The government does not guarantee that your child, children or
>>>>> grandchildren will not have a severe reaction to vaccines nor
>>>>> develop long term chronic illness as a result.
>>>>
>>>> Your government does not guarantee that your child, children or
>>>> grandchildren will not die from a vaccine preventable illness,
>>>> either. However, getting them vaccinated is the best guarantee that
>>>> is available.
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> The petition is to reject a proposal by a certain member of British
>>> parliament to FORCE vaccinations in the UK. A quote:
>>>
>>> "A Labour MP has recently suggested forcing all children to be
>>> vaccinated otherwise they cannot attend school and parents should not
>>> receive child benefits."
>>
>> I was not talking about the petition or the law. Rather, I was talking
>> about the life-saving value of vaccines.
>>
>
> Some vaccines are not life-saving. Chickenpox, for example.

Chicken pox killed something like 30 to 50 people a year before the vaccine.

Jeff

Mark Probert wrote:
> On Jun 3, 11:59 pm, Mike <m....RemoveThis@xyz.com> wrote:
>> Jeff wrote:
>>> JOHN wrote:
>>>> http://whale.to/vaccine/petition_against_forced_vaccines.html
>>>> Dear All
>>>> Please sign this petition and/or please pass this on for others to sign:-
>>>> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/forcedvaccines/
>>>> The government does not guarantee that your child, children or
>>>> grandchildren will not have a severe reaction to vaccines nor develop
>>>> long term chronic illness as a result.
>>> Your government does not guarantee that your child, children or
>>> grandchildren will not die from a vaccine preventable illness, either.
>>> However, getting them vaccinated is the best guarantee that is available.
>>> Jeff
>> The petition is to reject a proposal by a certain member of British
>> parliament to FORCE vaccinations in the UK. A quote:
>>
>> "A Labour MP has recently suggested forcing all children to be
>> vaccinated otherwise they cannot attend school and parents should not
>> receive child benefits."
>
> While I am adamantly pro-vaccine, no child should be forced, in the
> sense that they are physically made to be vaccinated.
>
> What you describe is NOT force. It is giving the parents choices. The
> parent can choose to vaccinate their child, or not be able to send
> them to school or live off the other taxpayers. Remember, refusing
> vaccination is made easier because of herd immunity, and this makes
> being a freeloader more attractive.

How about that: vaccinate your kid or pay an annual fine? It's a choice,
isn't it? Effectively not different from that proposal. Besides, I bet
not sending a child to school is not an option, it will result in the
child being taken away from the parents. So the choice is: vaccinate or
lose your child to the state (and then the state will vaccinate
him/her). Well, I am not a British lawyer, maybe I am missing some options.

Regarding herd immunity: certain vaccines, like mumps, DESTROY herd
immunity. The pre-vaccine population was 100% immune. It is being
replaced with 100% vaccinated, 90% immune population.

The mumps vaccine was introduced in the USA in 1967. When the children
born at the time reached high school age there were first mumps
outbreaks in high schools. When they went to college, mumps outbreaks on
college campuses started - for the first time in history of university
campuses. Everybody was vaccinated, of course.

The number of those infected is much smaller than before mass mumps
vaccination. But the problem is that mumps is much harder on adults than
on small children. There are fewer infected people but for them the
risks are greater. For example, catching mumps early in the childhood is
a 100% guarantee against mumps-related orchitis later in life. Getting
mumps vaccine instead gives orchitis a chance.

It would be interesting to find hard absolute numbers: how many people
had mumps complications (e.g. orchitis) then and now. I suspect that
there is no health benefit from mumps vaccine. It seems likely to me
that the "benefits" are negative.

In the meantime, mumps herd immunity is being eroded as older immune
people are replaced with 90% immune people.

The chickenpox vaccine was introduced in 1995. Here is a prediction.

About 2010 there will be chickenpox outbreaks in high schools.
About 2013 there will be chickenpox outbreaks in college campuses.

When mumps-vac generation enters nursing homes there will be mumps
outbreaks in nursing homes and mumps complications will become a
noticeable cause of death. But maybe something will be done about that
matter before.

On Jun 4, 5:54 pm, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
> John wrote:
>
> last forced vaccination in UK they had to get rid of when it became
> obvious
> to the people it made things worse, and the rule of law was going to
> break
> down with most people refusing to obey it
>
> eg. smallpox epidemics followed high vaccination levels, over 90% had
> been
> vaccinated, and it was killing 25,000 babies under 5 every yearhttp://whale.to/a/deathssmallpox.html
>
> be interesting to see if this MPhttp://whale.to/vaccine/creagh_h.html
> is at
> David Kirby's lecture this afternoon.
>
>
>
> The BAN against my responses to Valdeprobert
> remains in effect but John's words
> are overwhelming refutation of
> Valdepropbert's unsound position on this.
>
> Once the ban expires Valdeprobert
> will have the opportunity of
> attempting to refute this
> and attempt to counter the unrelenting logic
> of Citizen Jimserac, not before.

Whoi cares, dipwad? If John Scudamore, the owner of the internet's
largest suppository of bullshit information is your source, then you
truly prove you are a moron.

> Excluding any additional ad hominems,
> insults or emotional outbursts the current
> ban expires in two days (...maybe).

Who cares when it expires. You will still be a moron who does not
understand ad hominem.

On Jun 4, 11:56 pm, Mike <m....RemoveThis@xyz.com> wrote:
> Mark Probert wrote:
> > On Jun 3, 11:59 pm, Mike <m....RemoveThis@xyz.com> wrote:
> >> Jeff wrote:
> >>> JOHN wrote:
> >>>>http://whale.to/vaccine/petition_against_forced_vaccines.html
> >>>> Dear All
> >>>> Please sign this petition and/or please pass this on for others to sign:-
> >>>>  http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/forcedvaccines/
> >>>> The government does not guarantee that your child, children or
> >>>> grandchildren will not have a severe reaction to vaccines nor develop
> >>>> long term chronic illness as a result.
> >>> Your government does not guarantee that your child, children or
> >>> grandchildren will not die from a vaccine preventable illness, either.
> >>> However, getting them vaccinated is the best guarantee that is available.
> >>> Jeff
> >> The petition is to reject a proposal by a certain member of British
> >> parliament to FORCE vaccinations in the UK. A quote:
>
> >> "A Labour MP has recently suggested forcing all children to be
> >> vaccinated otherwise they cannot attend school and parents should not
> >> receive child benefits."
>
> > While I am adamantly pro-vaccine, no child should be forced, in the
> > sense that they are physically made to be vaccinated.
>
> > What you describe is NOT force. It is giving the parents choices. The
> > parent can choose to vaccinate their child, or not be able to send
> > them to school or live off the other taxpayers. Remember, refusing
> > vaccination is made easier because of herd immunity, and this makes
> > being a freeloader more attractive.
>
> How about that: vaccinate your kid or pay an annual fine? It's a choice,
> isn't it? Effectively not different from that proposal.

Wrong. I would explain it to you, but anti-vax merchants of disease,
disability and death have a problem understanding simple
explanations.

Besides, I bet
> not sending a child to school is not an option, it will result in the
> child being taken away from the parents.

In the US, a parent is allowed to homeschool. I understand that this
is also an option in the UK.

So the choice is: vaccinate or
> lose your child to the state (and then the state will vaccinate
> him/her). Well, I am not a British lawyer, maybe I am missing some options..

See above.

> Regarding herd immunity: certain vaccines, like mumps, DESTROY herd
> immunity. The pre-vaccine population was 100% immune. It is being
> replaced with 100% vaccinated, 90% immune population.

Do prove that.

> The mumps vaccine was introduced in the USA in 1967. When the children
> born at the time reached high school age there were first mumps
> outbreaks in high schools. When they went to college, mumps outbreaks on
> college campuses started - for the first time in history of university
> campuses. Everybody was vaccinated, of course.

Not so. I was never vaccinated for mumps nor did I have it.

> The number of those infected is much smaller than before mass mumps
> vaccination. But the problem is that mumps is much harder on adults than
> on small children. There are fewer infected people but for them the
> risks are greater. For example, catching mumps early in the childhood is
> a 100% guarantee against mumps-related orchitis later in life. Getting
> mumps vaccine instead gives orchitis a chance.
>
> It would be interesting to find hard absolute numbers: how many people
> had mumps complications (e.g. orchitis) then and now.  I suspect that
> there is no health benefit from mumps vaccine. It seems likely to me
> that the "benefits" are negative.

Mumps can cause all sorts of problems. Look them up and educate
yourself. You need it.

> In the meantime, mumps herd immunity is being eroded as older immune
> people are replaced with 90% immune people.
>
> The chickenpox vaccine was introduced in 1995. Here is a prediction.
>
> About 2010 there will be chickenpox outbreaks in high schools.
> About 2013 there will be chickenpox outbreaks in college campuses.

Sure.

> When mumps-vac generation enters nursing homes there will be mumps
> outbreaks in nursing homes and mumps complications will become a
> noticeable cause of death. But maybe something will be done about that
> matter before.

So you say, Idle conjecture.

"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1%I1k.2449$v%.1998@trndny04...

>
> Chicken pox killed something like 30 to 50 people a year before the
> vaccine.
>
> Jeff

lying with the truth.

What killed them really was mostly steroids that took out there immune
system

Chickepox was recognised harmless in 1890 http://whale.to/v/chicken1.html

SUPPORT ALERT!!!!!





On Jun 5, 9:10 am, Mark Probert <mark.prob... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 11:56 pm, Mike <m... DeleteThis @xyz.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Mark Probert wrote:
> > > On Jun 3, 11:59 pm, Mike <m... DeleteThis @xyz.com> wrote:
> > >> Jeff wrote:
> > >>> JOHN wrote:
> > >>>>http://whale.to/vaccine/petition_against_forced_vaccines.html
> > >>>> Dear All
> > >>>> Please sign this petition and/or please pass this on for others to sign:-
> > >>>>  http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/forcedvaccines/
> > >>>> The government does not guarantee that your child, children or
> > >>>> grandchildren will not have a severe reaction to vaccines nor develop
> > >>>> long term chronic illness as a result.
> > >>> Your government does not guarantee that your child, children or
> > >>> grandchildren will not die from a vaccine preventable illness, either.
> > >>> However, getting them vaccinated is the best guarantee that is available.
> > >>> Jeff
> > >> The petition is to reject a proposal by a certain member of British
> > >> parliament to FORCE vaccinations in the UK. A quote:
>
> > >> "A Labour MP has recently suggested forcing all children to be
> > >> vaccinated otherwise they cannot attend school and parents should not
> > >> receive child benefits."
>
> > > While I am adamantly pro-vaccine, no child should be forced, in the
> > > sense that they are physically made to be vaccinated.
>
> > > What you describe is NOT force. It is giving the parents choices. The
> > > parent can choose to vaccinate their child, or not be able to send
> > > them to school or live off the other taxpayers. Remember, refusing
> > > vaccination is made easier because of herd immunity, and this makes
> > > being a freeloader more attractive.
>
> > How about that: vaccinate your kid or pay an annual fine? It's a choice,
> > isn't it? Effectively not different from that proposal.
>
> Wrong. I would explain it to you, but anti-vax merchants of disease,
> disability and death have a problem understanding simple
> explanations.
>
> Besides, I bet
>
> > not sending a child to school is not an option, it will result in the
> > child being taken away from the parents.
>
> In the US, a parent is allowed to homeschool. I understand that this
> is also an option in the UK.
>
> So the choice is: vaccinate or
>
> > lose your child to the state (and then the state will vaccinate
> > him/her). Well, I am not a British lawyer, maybe I am missing some options.
>
> See above.
>
> > Regarding herd immunity: certain vaccines, like mumps, DESTROY herd
> > immunity. The pre-vaccine population was 100% immune. It is being
> > replaced with 100% vaccinated, 90% immune population.
>
> Do prove that.
>
> > The mumps vaccine was introduced in the USA in 1967. When the children
> > born at the time reached high school age there were first mumps
> > outbreaks in high schools. When they went to college, mumps outbreaks on
> > college campuses started - for the first time in history of university
> > campuses. Everybody was vaccinated, of course.
>
> Not so. I was never vaccinated for mumps nor did I have it.
>
> > The number of those infected is much smaller than before mass mumps
> > vaccination. But the problem is that mumps is much harder on adults than
> > on small children. There are fewer infected people but for them the
> > risks are greater. For example, catching mumps early in the childhood is
> > a 100% guarantee against mumps-related orchitis later in life. Getting
> > mumps vaccine instead gives orchitis a chance.
>
> > It would be interesting to find hard absolute numbers: how many people
> > had mumps complications (e.g. orchitis) then and now.  I suspect that
> > there is no health benefit from mumps vaccine. It seems likely to me
> > that the "benefits" are negative.
>
> Mumps can cause all sorts of problems. Look them up and educate
> yourself. You need it.
>
> > In the meantime, mumps herd immunity is being eroded as older immune
> > people are replaced with 90% immune people.
>
> > The chickenpox vaccine was introduced in 1995. Here is a prediction.
>
> > About 2010 there will be chickenpox outbreaks in high schools.
> > About 2013 there will be chickenpox outbreaks in college campuses.
>
> Sure.
>
> > When mumps-vac generation enters nursing homes there will be mumps
> > outbreaks in nursing homes and mumps complications will become a
> > noticeable cause of death. But maybe something will be done about that
> > matter before.
>
> So you say, Idle conjecture.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

In article <ycmdnWo4xqGfANrVnZ2dnUVZ8tLinZ2d.RemoveThis@bt.com>,
JOHN <john.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1%I1k.2449$v%.1998@trndny04...
>
>>
>> Chicken pox killed something like 30 to 50 people a year before the
>> vaccine.
>>
>> Jeff
>
>lying with the truth.
>
>What killed them really was mostly steroids that took out there immune
>system
>
>Chickepox was recognised harmless in 1890 http://whale.to/v/chicken1.html

Typical Scudamore -- the older the source, the more he venerates it.

I'm surprised he's not pushing the four humours theory of disease.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"There are two kinds of Republicans: millionaires and suckers."
-- John Dolan

JOHN wrote:
> "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1%I1k.2449$v%.1998@trndny04...
>
>> Chicken pox killed something like 30 to 50 people a year before the
>> vaccine.
>>
>> Jeff
>
> lying with the truth.
>
> What killed them really was mostly steroids that took out there immune
> system

What killed them was when they either got secondary infections or the
virus spread directly to the brain.

> Chickepox was recognised harmless in 1890 http://whale.to/v/chicken1.html

This is site is not recommended by thinking people. The author clearly
shows no evidence of understanding science, medicine or infectious disease.

Jeff

Mark Probert wrote:
> On Jun 4, 11:56 pm, Mike <m....DeleteThis@xyz.com> wrote:
>> Mark Probert wrote:
>>> On Jun 3, 11:59 pm, Mike <m....DeleteThis@xyz.com> wrote:
>>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>>> JOHN wrote:
>>>>>> http://whale.to/vaccine/petition_against_forced_vaccines.html
>>>>>> Dear All
>>>>>> Please sign this petition and/or please pass this on for others to sign:-
>>>>>> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/forcedvaccines/
>>>>>> The government does not guarantee that your child, children or
>>>>>> grandchildren will not have a severe reaction to vaccines nor develop
>>>>>> long term chronic illness as a result.
>>>>> Your government does not guarantee that your child, children or
>>>>> grandchildren will not die from a vaccine preventable illness, either.
>>>>> However, getting them vaccinated is the best guarantee that is available.
>>>>> Jeff
>>>> The petition is to reject a proposal by a certain member of British
>>>> parliament to FORCE vaccinations in the UK. A quote:
>>>> "A Labour MP has recently suggested forcing all children to be
>>>> vaccinated otherwise they cannot attend school and parents should not
>>>> receive child benefits."
>>> While I am adamantly pro-vaccine, no child should be forced, in the
>>> sense that they are physically made to be vaccinated.
>>> What you describe is NOT force. It is giving the parents choices. The
>>> parent can choose to vaccinate their child, or not be able to send
>>> them to school or live off the other taxpayers. Remember, refusing
>>> vaccination is made easier because of herd immunity, and this makes
>>> being a freeloader more attractive.
>> How about that: vaccinate your kid or pay an annual fine? It's a choice,
>> isn't it? Effectively not different from that proposal.
>
> Wrong. I would explain it to you, but anti-vax merchants of disease,
> disability and death have a problem understanding simple
> explanations.
>

You cannot explain, so you resort to insults.

> Besides, I bet
>> not sending a child to school is not an option, it will result in the
>> child being taken away from the parents.
>
> In the US, a parent is allowed to homeschool. I understand that this
> is also an option in the UK.

Not so fast. One needs a permit, and I do not think the boards of
education are permit mills. I am not a lawyer but I guess there are some
income requirements (for the single breadwinner) and educational
requirements (for stay-at-home parent). But for most parents
homeschooling is a heavy financial burden even if they can get a permit.
How is that different from an annual fine?

>
> So the choice is: vaccinate or
>> lose your child to the state (and then the state will vaccinate
>> him/her). Well, I am not a British lawyer, maybe I am missing some options.
>
> See above.
>
>> Regarding herd immunity: certain vaccines, like mumps, DESTROY herd
>> immunity. The pre-vaccine population was 100% immune. It is being
>> replaced with 100% vaccinated, 90% immune population.
>
> Do prove that.

Sure.
"One dose of mumps vaccine prevents approximately about 80% of mumps and
two doses approximately about 90% of cases."
Source: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/mumps/outbreak/faqs-outbreak.htm

>
>> The mumps vaccine was introduced in the USA in 1967. When the children
>> born at the time reached high school age there were first mumps
>> outbreaks in high schools. When they went to college, mumps outbreaks on
>> college campuses started - for the first time in history of university
>> campuses. Everybody was vaccinated, of course.
>
> Not so. I was never vaccinated for mumps nor did I have it.
>

Being born before 1956 is considered to be a proof of mumps immunity.
Either you are lying or your parents did not tell you.
The fact that you were born abroad either is irrelevant (if you are
lying) or makes your argument irrelevant (if you do not).

>> The number of those infected is much smaller than before mass mumps
>> vaccination. But the problem is that mumps is much harder on adults than
>> on small children. There are fewer infected people but for them the
>> risks are greater. For example, catching mumps early in the childhood is
>> a 100% guarantee against mumps-related orchitis later in life. Getting
>> mumps vaccine instead gives orchitis a chance.
>>
>> It would be interesting to find hard absolute numbers: how many people
>> had mumps complications (e.g. orchitis) then and now. I suspect that
>> there is no health benefit from mumps vaccine. It seems likely to me
>> that the "benefits" are negative.
>
> Mumps can cause all sorts of problems. Look them up and educate
> yourself. You need it.

Another insult.
Who is more likely to get these problems: a child or an adult?
What about "a mumps shot gives orchitis a chance"?

>
>> In the meantime, mumps herd immunity is being eroded as older immune
>> people are replaced with 90% immune people.
>>
>> The chickenpox vaccine was introduced in 1995. Here is a prediction.
>>
>> About 2010 there will be chickenpox outbreaks in high schools.
>> About 2013 there will be chickenpox outbreaks in college campuses.
>
> Sure.
>
>> When mumps-vac generation enters nursing homes there will be mumps
>> outbreaks in nursing homes and mumps complications will become a
>> noticeable cause of death. But maybe something will be done about that
>> matter before.
>
> So you say, Idle conjecture.

Jeff wrote:
> Mike wrote:
>> Jeff wrote:
>>> Mike wrote:
>>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>>> JOHN wrote:
>>>>>> http://whale.to/vaccine/petition_against_forced_vaccines.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear All
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please sign this petition and/or please pass this on for others to
>>>>>> sign:-
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/forcedvaccines/
>>>>>> The government does not guarantee that your child, children or
>>>>>> grandchildren will not have a severe reaction to vaccines nor
>>>>>> develop long term chronic illness as a result.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your government does not guarantee that your child, children or
>>>>> grandchildren will not die from a vaccine preventable illness,
>>>>> either. However, getting them vaccinated is the best guarantee that
>>>>> is available.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>> The petition is to reject a proposal by a certain member of British
>>>> parliament to FORCE vaccinations in the UK. A quote:
>>>>
>>>> "A Labour MP has recently suggested forcing all children to be
>>>> vaccinated otherwise they cannot attend school and parents should
>>>> not receive child benefits."
>>>
>>> I was not talking about the petition or the law. Rather, I was
>>> talking about the life-saving value of vaccines.
>>>
>>
>> Some vaccines are not life-saving. Chickenpox, for example.
>
> Chicken pox killed something like 30 to 50 people a year before the
> vaccine.
>
> Jeff

Another poster says it was 1200 in 6 or 7 years after the vaccine.
Something is wrong here. Source please.